Friday, October 3, 2008

Is the Dalai Lama a Fake?

This article is in response to Tenzin Peljor’s article entitled “Refutation of WSS sowing dissent with baseless allegations”, where he comments on the recent WSS article “Reting Lama – How he chose the false Dalai Lama

1. There is no evidence or sources supporting your claim

  • This is a view held by many Tibetans. As Namdrol of E-Sangha says, this is an account that has been circulating for many years in both Tibet and India. It is not as if this is being made up by the WSS -- rather they are reporting what many people already believe to be true. The Dalai Lama himself acknowledges these rumors when in New York he said that he is continuing the ban on Dorje Shugden so that he can demonstrate he is indeed the reincarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama (who also opposed the practice). So who is to say that the current ‘Dalai Lama’ is not persecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners to shore up his credibility as the authentic reincarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama?
  • The principal case in favor of the recognition of the current Dalai Lama is the visions of the Reting Lama.  Everyone agrees about certain facts concerning this lama and the recognition. Only he saw the visions. He is the one who oversaw the process. He was a morally questionable character. He had a lot to lose (namely his own power) through the recognition of Langdun’s relative as the Dalai Lama. Everyone agrees to this. Everyone also agrees that Tibetan politics at this time were no Shangri-la. Even by the Dalai Lama’s own account, there was widespread corruption and buying of ‘recognition’ of lamas. Is it really so ‘unthinkable’ that an ambitious, morally questionable political leader might do something to maintain his power and prevent his rivals from gaining power? Since we may never know whether or not Reting Lama had these visions or oversaw the process correctly, perhaps we will never know for sure whether or not the recognition process was corrupted. However, given Reting’s character, the political corruption of the time and the rivalry between Reting Lama and Langdun’s relative, there is a substantial amount of circumstantial evidence to create reasonable doubt about whether or not Reting Lama was acting as a ‘pure and holy being’ or as ‘a politician’ striving to hold on to power. We don’t know, but the evidence points in one direction.
  •         
  • All the WSS is doing is raising the question ‘Did they find the right guy?’ Who has the burden of proof here? Surely, given the political context of the decision, there is sufficient room for doubt to arise. Given how this 14 th Dalai Lama’s has created division within the Tibetan community over the Dorje Shugden issue and given how he is encouraging the Tibetans to engage in Chinese-like actions of persecution against Dorje Shugden practitioners (thereby creating the karma for the Tibetan people to once again have to go through the same ordeal of being exiled, etc.), it is certainly worth asking the question whether he is the right guy or not.
  •         
  • The only evidence in support of Tenzin Gyatso being the right guy is Reting’s visions and the fact that others have since accepted him as the Dalai Lama. Reting oversaw an universally acknowledged corrupt government and was undisputably involved in serious breaches of his moral discipline. He also stood a lot to lose politically, so his credibility is questionable at best. So that only leaves the fact that other lamas have since accepted him as the Dalai Lama, which will be addressed below.
  •         
  • And to turn the issue, there is no evidence whatsoever showing that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit (unless you count as evidence dough balls, strange dreams about a bearded monk, and the incoherent and contradictory utterings of somebody in a trace who has been ‘possessed’ by some spirit). So if you and other defenders of the Dalai Lama are going to hold up the standard of the necessity of evidence to prove one’s case before advancing any claims, then you should apply the same standard to the nature of Dorje Shugden. You cast doubts on the nature of Dorje Shugden without evidence or basis, yet you cry foul when someone does the same thing about the nature of the Dalai Lama. It is you who is contradicting yourself and applying double standards. Your defense against this is: ‘There are two views, and thus legitimate doubt, about the nature of Dorje Shugden.’ In the same way, ‘There are two views, and thus legitimate doubt, about the nature of the Dalai Lama.’ What is the difference?
  •     
    2. Article done to maintain momentum of WSS activities since now the Dalai Lama is sick and can’t do his talks in the West anymore.
                
  • The fact that the WSS has more to say about the activities and authenticity of the Dalai Lama does not mean that the WSS is doing this as another way to maintain momentum. For one thing, public interest in the problem is being maintained naturally through press interest in the situation – such as the articles and videos appearing on France 24, Knight News, The New Statesman, Al Jazeera, Cincinnati City Beat, and so on. Rather, it is that the WSS has the space now to explore further the core of the matter – one essential aspect of which is the trustworthiness of the Dalai Lama.
  •         
  • The entire case against Dorje Shugden rests on the opinion of the Dalai Lama. If his trustworthiness is questionable, then his opinions on Dorje Shugden are also questionable. The only ‘evidence’ that says that Dorje Shugden is not a Buddha is ‘The Dalai Lama says so’. People believe him on Dorje Shugden because they believe him to be trustworthy and reliable. Thus whether or not he is the correct Dalai Lama goes straight to the point – his reliability. His actions of religious persecution are certainly not Buddhist and there is this controversy surrounding his recognition, so it raises the questions – is he who we think he is? If he is not, then we should not be so eager to take on his views of Dorje Shugden just because he tells us to.

  • 3. Just trying to undermine the Dalai Lama
            
  • The WSS actually has no desire to undermine the Dalai Lama per se. They would be perfectly content to allow him to be if he weren’t engaging in a systematic campaign to make sure that not even the name ‘Dorje Shugden’ is known by future generations.
  •         
  • But since he has embarked on such a campaign, it seems perfectly legitimate to undermine the basis of his case against Dorje Shugden, namely people’s belief that he is trustworthy. If he is an imposter (he himself may actually believe he is the reincarnation, but that doesn’t make it so), then we shouldn’t believe him blindly on Dorje Shugden.
  •         
  • If the Dalai Lama wants to continue to be the head of the Tibetan government, then the WSS has no problem with this. They only have a problem with his actions aimed at exterminating Dorje Shugden practice. If he lifts the ban and stops his persecution of Dorje Shugden practitioners, the WSS would be happy to leave him be in his position.
  •         
  • But if he continues to act in ways that undermine the cause of Tibet (by being hypocritical on religious freedom, creating division within the Tibetan community and encouraging Tibetans to create the karma for another Chinese-style persecution to befall them), then the real question is not whether or not he is the legitimate Dalai Lama, but why are his supporters calling him ‘the defender of Tibet’ and supporting him? George Bush says he was defending America, but practically everything he did made America worse off. Yet he still has supporters and those same people are quick to label anybody who criticises George Bush as being unAmerican and unpatriotic. In the same way, the Dalai Lama says he is defending Tibet, but Tibet is no better off, and indeed is worse off. Yet there are still those who say he is defending Tibet and these same people say that anybody who criticizes the Dalai Lama’s actions is being unTibetan and unpatriotic.
  •         
  • The reason why the Dalai Lama is harming the Tibetan cause is as clear as day (even beyond the Dorje Shugden issue). All the Chinese care about is maintaining absolute political authority over Tibet. Since the Dalai Lama is the embodiment of the union of religion and politics the Chinese cannot grant ‘religious freedom’ without simultaneously granting ‘political authority’ to the Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama were to 100% renounce any ‘political authority’ over Tibet, then he could strike a deal with the Chinese on religious freedom for Tibetans. But because he favors his own political power over the interests of his people, he is not willing to strike this deal with the Chinese. So it is the Dalai Lama’s own stubborn refusal to renounce political power that Tibetans in Tibet continue to suffer oppression and persecution. Their freedom could be won tomorrow if only the Dalai Lama were not trying to hang on to power (after a more than 60 year reign).
  •       
    4. Political attempt to overthrow him

  • The WSS has no political ambitions whatsoever. They have only one objective, and that is the lifting of the ban. The Dalai Lama can stay in power as long as he wants, as long as he lifts the ban.
  •         
  • While many people might feel that politically speaking the Dalai Lama is doing more harm to the Tibetan cause than good, because Dorje Shugden practitioners have no political agenda whatsoever they take no position on whether he should be overthrown or not. They only take a position on the ban.
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  • It is quite paranoid to think questioning of any policy of a political leader is a disguised attempt at a coup! It is only authoritarian dictatorships who have such paranoid fears, not mature democratic leaders.
  •         
  • Besides, if the WSS wanted to ‘overthrow’ the Dalai Lama, then surely they must have a political leader in waiting, ready to take charge in the ‘glorious coup’. But who is this phantom leader? Nobody. Dorje Shugden practitioners are not interested. They simply want to go about their religious practices in peace without harrassement and persecution. Is that so much to ask? Would it really kill the Tibetan cause to let the monks in Tibet continue with their practices?
  •       
    5. If TR was a Buddha, why would he go along with this?
                
  • The present Dalai Lama’s ‘status as Dalai Lama’ was a fait accompli by the time Trijang Rinpoche came along. This was something that he felt he could not change without causing even more harm to Tibetan society, so, consistent with the Lamrim teachings on patience, it seems he accepted what he could not change and attempted to transform it as best he could by providing pure Dharma teachings to the present Dalai Lama.
  •         
  • Since the present Dalai Lama did seem to take a liking to the teachings of Trijang Rinpoche, and there was nothing that could be done about his status, then it was reasonable for Trijang Rinpoche to fill him with as much Dharma as he could, knowing that the Dalai Lama would then spread these teachings (even if in a mixed form) far and wide.
  •         
  • If Trijang Rinpoche said anything, then it would not be the Dalai Lama who fell from power, it would have been Trijang Rinpoche who would have been fired from his post as Junior Tutor. So perhaps he reasoned he could do more good by remaining his tutor than by being fired. People make these sorts of calculations all the time.
  •         
  • Besides, everyone agrees that Tibetan society and monastaries were filled with ‘questionable Rinpcohes’, as the entire recognition process had grown terribly corrupt. And since religion and politics are mixed inseparably in Tibetan society, it is obvious that if somebody is ‘recognized’ as a Tulku, then tremendous political power and wealth will flow from that. Since the recognition process is open to abuse, is it any wonder that so much corruption abounded in the recognition process? If Trijang Rinpoche called into question the Dalai Lama, then maybe he felt he would have to call into question all the other questionable Rinpoches, including, for example, the Dalai Lama’s brother. If he did that (or if people feared he might) then, given Tibetan politics, he could very well find himself assassinated. So perhaps he chose to not sacrifice a greater virtue (namely all the good he could bring about through his teachings) on the altar of a smaller virtue (namely outing the Dalai Lama). This is perfectly rational and consistent with the Dharma.
  • Answers to the remaining points in Tenzin Peljor’s replies coming soon.

    22 comments:

    LK said...

    Interesting twists and turns regarding the Dalai Lama issue. A few things that come to mind:

    The Reting Rinpoche account actually puts the Dalai Lama in a better light as a child from a Muslim family cannot be blamed for being chosen as the Dalai Lama.

    In the context of the medieval feudal history of Tibet, simply mistaking the reincarnation of a Lama and then trying to make the best out of a bad situation is nothing compared to the horror stories of murders and intermonastic fighting and corruption that are well documented.

    Exposing the truth about how Tibet was run helps cut through the Shangri-la Western wishful thinking and shows how amazing it was that Dharma survived at all there. Great hope for the West. It is great to show how Tibet was living in some kind of time warp of superstitions and intrigues similar to the Popes of the middle ages.

    Namdrol's comment was useful showing how this information is not new and therefore not invented by the WSS.

    Interesting that no one other than naive westerners has denied the account or even mentioned it anywhere. I hope it is available in Tibetan.

    There are members in the TGIE who are deeply disturbed by the actions of the Dalai Lama but so far have remained quiet fearing the consequences of even bringing up the topic. I hope they will at least try to address the issue.

    Tenzin said...

    Even the current Wikipedia entry for Reting Lama shows what a shady character he was -- so of course it is hard to trust his judgment when it comes to choosing the correct Dalai Lama, especially as it seems he did this without any oversight.

    adam said...

    My initial reaction to this article was to feel uncomfortable about it on the grounds that it seemed to be taking us in the opposite direction to any sort of peace agreement, or negotiated settlement.

    For me the position of the WSS ceases to make any sense with this article, because how can we at one and the same time demand that monks be allowed to return to monasteries loyal to the Dalai Lama, and at the same time engage in a campaign to completely discredit him?

    Doesn't this just strengthen the case of the other side who will now say "You Dorje Shugden people have no faith in our leader anyway. So therefore, it is quite clear that you don't belong with Tibetans loyal to the Dalai Lama"?

    This article seems more appropriate as part of an attempt to oust the Dalai Lama, or perhaps as part of an attempt at persuading people to abandon their faith in him. But what options are then available to them?

    1) They demand that they should be allowed to live in peace with other Tibetans regardless of how they regard the Dalai Lama or how he regards them?

    2) They try to live separately from Tibetans loyal to the Dalai Lama, but not necessarily to the extent of avoiding all contact with them under any circumstances as demanded by the pledge.

    The first of these seems to me to be extremely unrealistic, as it would ammount to the Exile community abandoning its slavish loyalty to the Dalai Lama, and accepting the principles of a secular state. This just isn't going to happen.

    This second of these seems vastly more realistic, but would entail the very separation of Tibetans that ostensibly we've been trying to campaign agaist the whole time.

    Are there any other possibilities?

    dougal said...

    Adam -

    think clearly. the Dalai Lama's brought this down on his own head, and is the one responsible for the massive loss of faith that his followers are soon to experience. how? by refusing to rescind his ban, or even to enter into dialogue about it.

    we need to remove the ban, in order to protect this holy lineage and its reputation for the benefit of countless living beings in the future. because he won't do it, we have to take away his power, and that means we have to destroy his reputation. after all, his reputation IS his power. he's left us with no choice.

    we need to hit him hard. we can't pull punches. we need to destroy his power.

    and we are. already, his reputation's crumbling. he's very worried now, and so he should be. claiming exhaustion to put off his court case in India? buying time to desperately pull some political strings with the Indian govt. to get the judge nobbled or the case thrown out, more like.

    you asked about possibilities - way i see it there are two: he lifts the ban, or we hose it by exposing him and destroying his reputation. his time's running out.

    on a brighter note, Ven. GKG told a friend of mine in the late 90's that when the Dalai Lama falls, he'll fall hard, and at that time, we need to help him. i thought that was very compassionate, considering what a pain in the ass the Dalai Lama's been.

    adam said...

    dougal:

    Clearly the Dalai Lama has brought this upon himself. Furthermore I'm an enthusiastic supporter of the protests as a means of defending the right of religious freedom of Dorje Shugden worshippers. However, I get confused when the agenda of WSS appears to go beyond drawing attention to the plight of Dorje Shugden worshippers, or explaining DL's reasons for behaving as he has - and we surely need to make the point that we reject the idea that he is acting out of compassion - to trying to discredit him more generally.

    All the same, I don't disagree with this on principle, as arguably it is more than justified in the circumstances, but merely wonder how it is supposed to work in practice as a method for achieving our stated goals.

    Your posting seems to imply that you believe that the WSS has the power to discredit the Dalai Lama completely - i.e. in the opinion of everyone both Tibetan and non-Tibetan. I can agree with you that it would be very desirable if everyone were to reject DL as a both a spiritual and political leader, as then there would be no basis whatsoever for this problem.

    However, is this in any sense realistic? Even if the outside world were to completely abandon its fond regard for him (and even this seems a distant goal) surely a majority of the Tibetan exile community will continue to feel loyalty to him. Even if the majority of the exile community were to reject the Dalai Lama as a spiritual leader (surely a very, very distant goal right now) might there not be the problem of those loyal to him feeling obliged to exile themselves from the majority of their fellow Tibetans - i.e. the present problem in reverse lol!!!

    And so my question remains how it is that we can reconcile the tactic of trying the undermine the authority of DL completely with our stated goal of wanting all Tibetans to be able to live together under the same roof.

    Of course it may be that our priority is for the truth to prevail, and that practical considerations are of secondary importance. This would be a credible position to hold, but no statement has been made to this effect, and the stated aims of WSS seem to contradict this idea.

    Therefore I remain with a sense of confusion and uncertainty about what WSS is really trying to achieve at this point, and how they are trying to get us there.

    Best Wishes,

    Adam

    Atisha's cook said...

    hi Adam,

    firstly, WSS is we, not "they"!

    secondly, i think the point is that while there may well be undesirable practical ramifications of a complete discrediting of the Dalai Lama, *he* has left us with no alternative.

    his ban has power for one reason and one reason only: because his speech has power. whether this is due to sincere Guru reliance, blind faith, celebrity glamour or political expediency is beside the point. in order to remove the ban, which is our aim, then we must either persuade the Dalai Lama to rescind it, or destroy the power of his speech. since we have thus far been unable to accomplish the former, we have no choice but to accomplish the latter - and to accomplish this we have to destroy the power of his speech.

    for as long as people are prepared to accept uncritically whatever he says, he'll the opportunity to use the power of his speech as a weapon. we, out of compassion for him and his victims, *must* disarm him. do we really have any other choice? what do you think?

    Atisha's cook said...

    sorry - just checked my comment, and saw that i didn't edit it correctly! this is what i meant to say:

    "...the point is that while there may well be undesirable practical ramifications of a complete discrediting of the Dalai Lama, *he* has left us with no alternative.

    his ban has power for one reason and one reason only: because his speech has power. whether this is due to sincere Guru reliance, blind faith, celebrity glamour or political expediency is beside the point. in order to remove the ban, which is our aim, then we must either persuade the Dalai Lama to rescind it, or destroy the power of his speech. since we have thus far been unable to accomplish the former, we have no choice but to accomplish the latter - and to accomplish this we have to destroy his reputation.

    for as long as people are prepared to accept uncritically whatever he says, he'll have the opportunity to use the power of his speech as a weapon. we, out of compassion for him and his victims, *must* disarm him. do we really have any other choice? what do you think?"

    adam said...

    Dear Atisha's Cook,
    thank you for your answer. I don't have any objection to trying to destroy DL's reputation as a means of trying to destroy the power of his speech in principle, but I don't understand how we can use it as a method for trying to achieve our stated goal of non-discrimination within the Tibetan community between Shugden worshippers and non-Shugden worshippers, at least in the short term. It seems to me that we find ourselves in a difficult position, because for as long as we are making requests to DL, such as the request that monks should be allowed to return to monasteries loyal to him, we are in a sense asking a favour of him. For as long as that remains the case our position is very different from that of a politician who may have good reason to feel that he has nothing whatsoever to lose from completely discrediting his political opponents.
    Supposing that the position of WSS is to be seen as representative of Dorje Shugden followers, and it must surely be seen as such to some extent, it now becomes the case in the minds of some people that Dorje Shugden followers believe that the Dalai Lama isn't even the real Dalai Lama and has no claim to that title.

    Is this really going to aid the cause of non-discrimination between Shugden followers and non-Shugden followers?

    I think that we have given up on the idea of trying to achieve our originally stated goals, perhaps due to a lack of progress, and are concentrating our efforts on winning the argument for the sake of truth prevailing. I don't necessarily disagree with this, as maybe it serves a bigger purpose than any grudging concession we might be able to win from DL and TGIE from a nicely-nicely approach (and even that is extremely doubtful).

    So all I am doing is drawing attention to what looks to me like a conflict of interests between the practical goal of preventing a division within Tibetan society, and the goal of winning the argument in general, and asking that we acknowledge which of these we are now trying to achieve for the sake of clarity.

    I'm sure that good results have been achieved and will continue to be achieved. I like to share with people this quote from Martin Luther King:

    "The nonviolent approach does not immediately change the heart of the oppressor. It first does something to the hearts and souls of those committed to it. It gives them new self-respect; it calls up resources of strength and courage they did not know they had. Finally it reaches the heart of the opponent and so stirs his conscience that reconciliation becomes a reality."

    Perhaps this will be the sequence of events for us also. I certainly hope so!



     

    Atisha's cook said...

    Adam -

    re. the stated aims of the WSS, this is from the WSS website:

    The purpose of this website is to expose the hypocrisy of the Dalai Lama who presents himself as a champion of human rights and defender of religious freedom while inflicting terrible human rights abuses on his own people and interfering with the religious freedom of thousands and thousands of people around the world.

    The site is presented by the Western Shugden Society (WSS), an ad hoc coalition of Dorje Shugden practitioners from many different countries. The immediate aims of the WSS are expressed in a recent letter to the Dalai Lama.
    (i've pasted it below. dougal)

    Because the Dalai Lama refuses even to acknowledge our correspondence, let alone enter into meaningful dialog, we are left with no alternative but to organize protest demonstrations wherever the Dalai Lama visits. We will continue to organize demonstrations to coincide with the Dalai Lama’s schedule until he agrees to our requests.

    We hope that through our actions, international scrutiny will be brought to bear on the Dalai Lama’s lies and actions of religious persecution so that the Tibetans he is oppressing will receive justice and Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world will receive religious freedom.



    the letter:


    12th April 2008

    To the Dalai Lama of Tibet,

    We the Western Shugden Society ask you to accomplish four things:

    1. To give freedom to practice Dorje Shugden to whoever wishes to rely upon this Deity.
    2. To stop completely the discrimination between Shugden people and non-Shugden practitioners.
    3. To allow all Shugden monks and nuns who have been expelled from their monasteries and nunneries to return to their monasteries and nunneries where they should receive the same material and spiritual rights as the non-Shugden practitioners.
    4. That you tell in writing to the Tibetan community throughout the world that they should practically apply the above three points.

    Do you accept these four points? We require your answer by the 22 April 2008, signed and delivered by registered post to:

    Western Shugden Society
    c/o Dorje Shugden Devotees Society,
    House No 105, Old Tibetan Camp, Majnu Ka Tilla, Delhi-54

    With a copy of your letter sent to the following email address: western_shugden_society@live.com



    from this, i think we can understand that we're campaigning not just for the benefit of contemporary Tibetans, but for the benefit of "Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world", both now and in the future. this means protecting our lineage from destruction. there's been no change of intention or aim on our part, and exposing the Dalai Lama's hypocrisy and deceit has always been our method.

    we ARE using peaceful means, absolutely in accordance with Dr King's ideal; not one of us, to my knowledge, has raised a hand against another in pursuit of our aims, and none of us intends to!

    these are right actions, motivated by compassion and guided by wisdom. we've nothing to be ashamed of.

    dougal said...

    Adam -

    i can see you're uncomfortable with this latest volley we've fired, mate. so what would you suggest?

    nothing else has worked so far - have you got any other method to stop this lunatic from creating any more harm for himself and others?

    we don't have a choice, imo.

    dougal said...

    oh yeah -

    you said: "Your posting seems to imply that you believe that the WSS has the power to discredit the Dalai Lama completely - i.e. in the opinion of everyone both Tibetan and non-Tibetan."

    if we're talking about rumours, then i've got a whole bunch that are FAR worse than this point about him being a fake! like, having his opponents murdered for one. and having a daughter, by his "oracle" (not Nechung oracle, another one, whose special spiritual qualifications included that she just happened to be a Pretty Young Thing, and who was kept quietly in his palace until she got pregnant - the Geshe i heard it from told me she'd been packed off somewhere she can't cause any trouble out of harm's way). he also went to the heads of the Gelug order to try to get Gelugpa ordination changed to a one-year-on, one-year-off system. and at another time he asked to be allowed to take a personal sabbatical from the monkhood, presumably to get his rocks off. astonishingly, they said: "no, Your Holiness, we can't really get behind that." well - i heard it was a high Lama in France (maybe Ganden Tripa?) who was the main opponent to these, um, progressive ideas. perhaps others would have let him.

    course, that's all just rumours. :-D


    "I think rumours." His Holiness the undisputed heavyweight champion of the oppressed, Pope of Buddhism and God-King, Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet.

    dougal said...

    yeah - i know: idle gossip. sorry.

    adam said...

    Dear Atisha's Cook and dougal,

    thank you for your answers. However, neither of you is really responding to the points that I have made.

    I'm not saying that these are good points, valid points, or ones that anyone necessarily needs to take heed of; but if you have the wish to try to answer my postings you really need to try to take careful note of the points that I am making and answer those points and those points alone.

    As to what I am suggesting, I think my previous postings make clear that all I am suggesting is that it would be nice if there could be a bit of clarity about where we think we're at, what we think we can realistically hope to achieve in the short, medium and long term, how we hope to achieve it; and what role this more general criticism of DL plays in this.

    Anonymous said...

    IMHO:
    The short, mid, and long term plan is to get the ban lifted, to stop persecution of lay people, and to allow ordained people back into the monasteries.
    The purpose of providing this information about the Dalai Lama is aimed at the people in his government and Tibetans in general so that they can rethink the current situation and policy and find the courage to challenge both - ideally with the results given above.
    It is also aimed at the westerners to rethink the current situation and policy based on a new angle on both - ideally with the results of asking the Dalai Lama to reconsider his actions and stopping to lay into western Shugden practitioners.
    Does that sound about right?!

    Atisha's cook said...

    Adam -

    you said: "all I am suggesting is that it would be nice if there could be a bit of clarity about where we think we're at, what we think we can realistically hope to achieve in the short, medium and long term, how we hope to achieve it; and what role this more general criticism of DL plays in this."

    with respect, these are exactly the points that i hoped to address! i'm sorry if i didn't understand your points more clearly.

    anyway, there's basically no need for us to disagree, i think; we're both after the same thing, after all.

    all the best,
    Atisha's cook

    Anonymous said...

    Dear All,

    thank you, that will do fine.

    I think we will just have to wait to see how things work out.

    adam said...

    Oh, that last posting was me by the way!

    Anonymous said...

    then who is the 'real' dalai lama?

    Just like the Chinese-chosen Panchen Lama..i think the one who shows tru dharma ethics and helps it spreads is what makes the title..regardless if Panchen lama has one or more emanations...

    But with the dalai lama this could apply to if he kept to spreading dharma and not causing schism.
    But as far as the actual reincarnation...he's probably hermiting in tibet or among us now as another Lama.

    jairosoft said...

    I have a question about the theory or story proposed by the article titled "How the 14th Dalai Lama was Chosen". What about the Dalai Lama's older brothers who were recognized incarnations of Lamas? Or does the story suggest that he may not even come from that family, and therefore his mother might also be fake? And if not fake, then how could that be a muslim family producing several lamas? Can anyone bring together the missing pieces to that story? Everything else sounds plausible, i.e., that Reting Rinpoche was of questionable character and may have fabricated the dream and the story of the tests given to the boy. But if the family was well known then that family would have had to have been known as a Muslim Tibetan family. So how could they have produced older kids that were recognized and given away to become Lamas? A Muslim Tibetan family wouldn't do that. Would a Christian family give away their kid to become a Muslim leader, or vice versa? Unless they were to be given a large sum of money. So maybe the family was making a decent living giving away their kids for Lamahood. And becoming a Lama was as prestigious as becoming a lawyer or doctor, in Tibetan society. So then it could be plausible. But then does pointing out that he came from a Muslim family make that a bad thing? That is very un-Buddhist to think so. Oops, sorry for using the word "un-Buddhist", but couldn't think of anything else.
    jairosoft

    Tenzin said...

    The Dalai Lama's brothers were recognized as incarnations after the Dalai Lama was.

    And yes, the Dalai Lama's family has received a huge amount of money and favors from his appointment.

    Thom said...
    This comment has been removed by the author.
    Thom said...

    If One looks closely and studies a thing.
    Then we may discern the true nature of a thing by observing it's patterns of behavior closely. Anyone should discern the words spoken from Lord Buddha. He said,'Do not take my word for any of the things I taught you.
    Find out the truth of a thing for yourself.'
    They say, 'that a nut does not fall far from the tree!

    Thupbten Norbu and his brother, Tenzin Gyatso Norbu take care of themselves and their familes. No one else really matters to them.
    It's not much more complicated than that.
    The proof is in the pudding and I observed as with others. Including the Monroe County Circit Court in Bloomington, Indiana found the Norbu of stealing millions of dollars.
    Norbu was there 24-7 and he let it go on. Because his sons enjoyed an elevated status with fast expensive cars and buying up real estate that was worth more than any of them could ever reasonably afford.
    All the money that came in with the Proceeds of the Kalachakra, something like 10-12 million came in within little over a week in southern Indiana.
    Now imagine for a moment, all the millions he rakes in on his other investments and he is lying and pretending to sow it back into his people
    The nut does not fall far from the tree.
    He and his brother took from the CIA and KGB. Then the millionaires and aristocrats of the best of the West.
    First in amazement at how easy it was to take these Westerners, whether on their heads or toes, doesn't matter to them. Just take as much as you can.

    We'll shove our version of Lord Buddhas words down their throats and get rid of the competiton while they are young.

    Heck! I'm the only adult amongst these High Lamas [then they were only boys] in the room.
    Like frogs or crocodiles can eat their young.
    Dalia lama yawned, and snapped down on helpless young Tulkus.

    Yahoo! He thought as Thurman smirked and set the plot.
    I'll file a disclaimer, that all of these old men, who were so kind to me, were wrong. I can rewrite the whole thing [lama choepa}. Because Bob Thurman concluded that "All of Us, Are Dumber Than a Bag Full Of Hammers".
    I think his actions are dispicably conspicious.
    Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang decided,that this old man, we know as Tenzin Gyatso Norby, is as cruel and ignorant as can be. I am getting out of the robes to get away from being under his thumb. That's the only way to be Keep My Vows and Be Free!
    Who cannot tolerate breaking the intent of our vows and do not break our vows.
    If we listen to our own reasoning that we know the difference between what is right, and what is wrong.

    The Three Poisons,sealed their fate for lying and deceiving the Innocents.
    His brother stole,as soon as he had a chance from the Kalachakra and Dalia lama was right there while they took the proceeds from the devoted.
    The law was broken and some Justice is recorded.
    Now these men are being investigated and will soon find their place in line to appear before the Courts for Justice.
    Dalia Lama and Samdung are about to see that the balance sheet doesn't add up.
    They've broken the law and will pay for it.
    Anger,Jeauously and Greed.
    Step back and add it up and you'll see how greed has undermined him.
    The nut does not fall far from the tree.